Ep69-God Can't - Thomas Jay Oord



Purchase the books: https://www.amazon.com/God-Cant-Believe-after-Tragedy-ebook/dp/B07MP93F1W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1547100495&sr=8-1&keywords=god+can%27t+oord

https://www.amazon.com/Uncontrolling-Love-God-Relational-Providence-ebook/dp/B01959VKI2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1547100540&sr=8-1&keywords=the+uncontrolling+love+of+god


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Show Notes:

"I wrote this book for victims of evil, survivors, and those who endure senseless suffering. I wrote it for the wounded and broken who have trouble believing in God, are confused, or have given up faith altogether. I’m writing to those who, like me, are damaged in body, mind, or soul.

This book is also for those who don’t call themselves “victims” or “survivors” but have been wronged. They may not call what happened “evil,” but they hurt. These people wonder what God was doing when they were betrayed, personally attacked, or unjustly laid off work. Where was God when they struggled through divorce, had miscarriages, were cheated, suffered prolonged illness, or had a freak accident? "

My friends are hurting-Stories of people who have suffered and the traditional answers that they get.

The big ideas in this book share two assumptions, and I want to mention them before going further.

The first is that God loves us all, all the time. God loves everyone and everything, all creatures great and small. God never stops loving, even for one moment, because God’s nature is love. God listens, feels, and responds by acting for good.

The Second is that evil is real. Some suffering, destruction, and harm are unnecessary. Some pain is pointless. Genuine evil makes the world, all things considered, worse than it might have been.

This view versus a soul building theodicy that evil is allowed for a greater good. Soul building or some other part of God's plan.

You give a five part solution. Lets go over that:

1) God Can't Prevent Evil Singlehandedly

     • A LOVING PERSON PREVENTS PREVENTABLE EVIL

    • STOOD BY AND ALLOWED?

    • WOULD JESUS STOP EVIL?

    • EVEN A POWERFUL GOD CAN’T DO SOME THINGS

    • GOD IS LOVE

         - And what is love? Love is purposeful action in relation to God and others that aims to do good. Love advances well-being. It fosters flourishing, abundant life, and blessedness. To put it formally, to love is to act intentionally, in response to God and others, to promote overall well-being.

          If a loving person prevents evil then why would a God who is limited only by having to love everything equally not lovingly prevent evil?

     • GOD’S NATURE IS UNCONTROLLING LOVE

Is it is God's nature or the nature of God's power that is uncontrolling?

      • NOT SITTING ON A HEAVENLY THRONE

      • A BODILESS SPIRIT

So why isn't this your view then? God is not physical therefore he cannot directly interact with the physical world. Love isn't limiting God not being physical is. If he had a body he would stop evil and could so....an essentially loving nature isn't limiting God, but not having a body is.

       • WE'RE NOT ROBOTS

      • GOD BATTLED, GOD LOST

The Shack, Problem with mystery, A loving Papa, A wooing suitor,


2) God Feels Our Pain

     • Fully Empathetic

     • Unhelpful views: A Brick Wall, Eye in the Sky, CEO of the universe, Micro-manager, Clean Freak

How do we feel God's Love?

- Ministry of Human Presence

- A community of care

- Mindfuleness, Meditation, Prayer

- Experiences in Nature

- The Arts

- Love of a Child

3) God Works to Heal

     • If it's thy will

    • ALWAYS PRESENT AND ALWAYS LOVING

    • WORKS ALONGSIDE PEOPLE AND OTHER ENTITIES

    • GOD CANNOT HEAL SINGLEHANDEDLY

    • Enough Fatih

    • Some Healing Must Wait...for the afterlife

4) God Squeezes Good From Bad

- Just because we can learn something doesn't mean God caused/allowed it

- Does God punish?

- No pain, No gain

5) God Needs Our Cooperation

- Indispensable Love Synergy

- Prayer

- The Afterlife

- Relentless Love


You get personal with your experiences with suffering.


......... A God who is morally praiseworthy........

First, I question whether it makes any sense to call a being “good” that cannot conceivably do wrong in a morally significant sense.

I have also argued at length that a being that cannot say “no” to a relationship, that must love without having a choice about it, cannot love in a fully interpersonal sense with the most valuable kind of love. If God is an essentially perfectly good being, then it is necessary that God loves. God has no choice but to love and cannot choose not to love us. But interpersonal love cannot be necessitated in this sense. Love is a choice by its very nature. ... a being that has no choice but to love cannot love with the exalted kind of interpersonal love expressed by God for us in the scriptures.8 Thus, the notions of “essentially perfectly good being” and “perfectly loving being” are logically incompatible.

If a person has a tumor that effects their brain and causes them to love me is that real love? Or the incorporeal being being trusted to not cheat metaphor.

“What is wonderful in a real relationship is that she is free to choose to end the relationship at any time but freely chooses to love me and remain faithful to me. Such freely given love is more valuable to me than any love that would be impossible for her to refrain from giving. It means that her love for me is a choice, an expression of who she is and what she chooses to give.”

Most importantly, the notion that God is perfectly good, in the sense that no being having a divine nature can possibly sin, also wreaks havoc with any coherent Christology. Christ had both human and divine natures. It is evident that Jesus was fully human and thus was free to sin though he freely chose not to. Jesus was tempted and learned from the things that he suffered (Hebrews 4:15; 5:8-9; Alma 7:12-13). If it were logically impossible for Jesus to sin, then he was not truly tempted.

Does it make any sense to say that we can trust God to be good if it is logically necessary that God is perfectly good. It is true that we can be sure that God will be perfectly “good,” whatever “being good” can mean for such a being. However, we cannot repose trust in a person if there is no possibility of that person failing to do what we trust that s/he will. If we “trust” God only if it is logically guaranteed that God is and will be good, then what we trust is not God, but logic.

Equal Love?

If I am dying from a disease and God can't stop it because he loves the disease equally then he is loving it at my expense....in other words he is loving the disease more than me. He has to choose between the disease and my organism and chooses the disease. One must die. He lets me die.

Is it His Loving Nature or Lack of a body?

You say that if Jesus were here He would not stand by while someone was raped or murdered. So this means God doesn't have to allow it. His nature isn't stopping him. What now seems to be stopping him according to your proposal is His lack of a physical body not his love.

Love seems like a rather abstract term to assign to limiting power in such a specific way?

It seems like it would be easier to say that God gives life essentially and can't fail to, but can't control what that life will do at all.....this way you get rid of the paradox that God is giving life to the universe the way that it is, but that he secretly wants it to be other than it is....so he is not just a constantly frustrated God. Also if creatures can resist God can they do what they want generally? If so how are there any regularities at all?

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